KJV in SS vs KJV in Logos

K

Keight

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Logos is having a 20% off sale. They have hidden the $100.00 version of Fundamentals on the site and even off my wishlist, but I googled it and found it through a backdoor and got it for $80.00. Having my wishlist messed with bothers me! In the past, I have used the free basic version mostly as an ebook reader and to keep up kinda sorta with a Greek language learning video. So this is the first time I am really examining the program and especially the modules. I think I am more concerned than impressed.

All sorts of fancy behind the scenes stuff needs to happen, because no one is using the same English words and not even the same Greek manuscripts. So who is in charge of all the decisions about vague words such as pronouns and common nouns referring to a proper noun? It is not like we have a single resource attributed to a single author or listed editors. But worse, what about the KJV itself? It looks like some of the discussion about the KJV module was removed or locked or something; I cannot access it. What is the 1900s KJV and what is the alternate one that is available for purchase? I could not find out at the site.

I don't trust the modules. The Naves is "updated" so it works with all versions, so again it is linked to what? The point of all this power study is to get deeper, but it seems more interpretive than back to the "original", than using just a trusted KJV and resource books linked to the KJV. The $80.00 purchase will allow me to keep up with my Greek studies better, but ... I am becoming more and more disillusioned about the idea of learning Greek of being of any value at all. The expense of time and money spent on Greek that could be used on other things seems backward not forwards in my bigger goals.

I have been unable to find a hardcopy of a readable version of the TSK anywhere; OOP copies of a version that I cannot see a sample of are about $150.00. I am reliant upon a digital copy. I am so thankful for SwordSearcher for that ONE resource alone. How is it that we find ourselves with no decent hardcopy of TSK???? The Hendrickson one is better on some pages than others, but the Romans pages are just a bad photocopy of a 3 column resource that must have been much larger. They are unreadable.

If someone can compare the KJV in SW to the KJV in Logos, I would really appreciate it.

If you do not even trust the Bible in the software, then there is not much of a point of all the rest, unless I use it like a library catalog and take the information back to SwordSearcher and hardcopy books. We are in a weird time. I guess more than ever we need wisdom more than knowledge.
 
I've never bought anything from Logos; I've always had the suspicion that anyone who wants THAT much money for access to Scripture materials can''t be on the up-and-up. This is one reason I was so delighted to find SwordSearcher. I used to use Bible Works a little bit, and they weren't too bad, but I realized it wasn't what I really wanted; besides I found out it used the Blayney edition of the KJV and having grown up with the Cambridge (the real deal), I realized it wasn't what I wanted. I also had keyboard compatibility issues, it was a big hassle to use the Dvorak keyboard at the time. And had visions of learning Greek and Hebrew. I find that the Dvorak keyboard has an advantage with adapting the keyboard to foreign languages as it has all the vowels on one side of the keyboard. At least it suits my purposes. But I digress. For $80.00 - $100.00 you can get a course in Hebrew or Greek on Amazon. THe Greek course is written by Christpher Mounce, the Hebrew course is written by Miles Van Pelt. I have one sitting here in the box and I have taken a look at it. I was told (and I hope this is correct), that you can use whichever version of the manuscripts you prefer with it. It comes with video DVD's. flashcards, a book and workbook, etc. It is unfortunate that almost everyone with a commercial course it seems, is of the Westcott and Hort camp. We had the Cambridge edition at our house when I was growing up, and I feel this gave me a distinct advantage. WHen you have only had the real pure truth, the poison is immediately detectable. I remember once getting my hands on the NEB and I thought it was fantastic. Such wonderful, modern English prose! (I am very susceptible to that sort of thing.) And then one day I had a verse from the Bible going round in my head and I was pretty sure it was in Matthew. It was a verse about Jesus and the Christ. A really important verse. So I went to the NEB and I couldn't find it. I went and got the Concordance and yes, I was looking in the right place, but it just wasn't there! It as MIA. Well, about this time my husband brought home a computer and I started trying to learn how to use the internet and come to find out that some of the modern versions are missing over 250 verses from the Textus Receptus. What a wake-up call! I promptly threw it in the garbage, wonderful prose and all. You would think I would have gottten the idea when I was eighteen and spent my last penny to get one of these new Bibles everyone was raving about. It was the NIV. I took it home, poured myself some ice water, and sat down to read. I opened it to the tiny little book of Joel. I said, What have I done? I've spent my last penny on a Roman Catholic Bible. (And I was only eighteen, mind you.) And I spilled the water all over the book and couldn't take it back. So it went in the garbage. I know about wasted money, but all in all, it could have been worse. I tell everybody I know about SwordSearcher.
 
Mairi Stewart said:
I've always had the suspicion that anyone who wants THAT much money for access to Scripture materials can''t be on the up-and-up.

some of the modern versions are missing over 250 verses from the Textus Receptus.

I know about wasted money, but all in all, it could have been worse. I tell everybody I know about SwordSearcher.
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I have no trust in the logos publisher.

Sometimes I waste more time than money; time is sometimes more precious.

I like to do the exercises on the old pubic domain textbooks, but I do like to watch modern language learning videos and have access to older or limited versions of whatever the teacher is using, just enough not to be totally lost. Then I apply what I learned to the older textbooks written by professors that were fluent in the classical languages that modern professors are not. I try to glean the best from all the ages. I try and prepare for what is coming my way -- my crazy, eventful, surreal, different way. I try and be wise, but make mistakes, and then sometimes even find the mistake was not a mistake, because I learned SOOO much more by making the "mistake" than if I had never made it.

We talk here all the time about the version of the KJV being used. They don't talk about it at logos. I find that weird. If you are going to invest so much time and money into deep study, the English version matters, especially if the software is going to graph and map it and compare it. What is it making charts of and counting?

The general questions and conclusions I am coming to might be more valuable than $80.00. That is often the way with me. The most valuable things I learn are not what I was aiming for, but what I learned from hanging around.
 
This is a very familiar conversation. I had the same one with the Lord about a decade ago when Logos was in version 2. Yes, I have been using it that long and yes, I have version 8. I have gotten to the point that I only update the base package, anything else is "iffy" at best. I have been and will remain a die-hard KJV man.

Now about the TSK, which edition are you looking for? The old one by Torrey or the newer one by MacArthur? It makes a huge difference and, to be honest, you have to be very careful of both because no matter which one you use, you'll find that neither one supports the preservation of the Scriptures in Psalms 12:7.

Another thing that you have to consider when learning Greek is, which Greek are you learning, no I don't mean text. There are two forms of Greek that was used in the first couple of centuries AD. There was the common street Greek, koine, and there was the Greek of those who were educated, classical Greek. The Westcott and Hort text is from the classical side of the spectrum, as are all of the newer Greek text. The text of Erasmus and those that followed was of the common street Greek. I have also come to the conclusion that Strong's dictionaries can not be trusted because he mixed both types of Greek in it. He also worked on the translation team of Westcott and Hort as well as on the ASV committee of 1901. Beware of what you don't know about the resource materials you are using.

I learned Greek, Hebrew, and Latin only to find out that the English of the KJV was exactly what God said and preserved. I am 60 years old and started my studies at the age of 12. I quit reading and studying all the "original languages" many years ago, because of my firm belief in God's preservation of His words through the koine manuscripts into the English text of the KJV.
 
I understand where you're coming from. The turn of the century (the previous century that is), the materials are a lot better. But the modern courses have the audio. A lot of the publishing houses that print "Bibles" are NWO owned. I found a lot of good books on the archive.org website. Maybe you have heard of it? I found Bancroft's History of the US (6 volumes) and the one by Everett Hale. Good stuff, from the Christian perspective. They have a LOT. Buying a separate hard drive to put it all on is a good idea. To me, it is very dishonest the way some websites put out "Bibles" and such and they don't even tell you which version. Sometimes if you ask, it turns out the employee doesn't even know! Especially with the foreign language Bibles. https://www.yellowpages.com/dallas-tx/mip/international-bible-association-9619201 is the website address for the International Bible Association in Dallas, Texas, they have French and Spanish Bibles. Also Holy Bible Foundation, a European website, has photostatic copies of old Bibles in many languages. The web address is holybiblefoundation.org. However, the store in Dallas did not, the last time I bought from them, carry the RVG2010. I am looking for a German Bible that was printed about 1901 but I can't seem to find it. I don't speak German, but am looking for it for someone else. It has the slightly older but not archaic spellings. I think they had a spelling revision about 1910 or so and another one in the 1980's. Persian (Farsi) also went through a spelling revision process after they kicked out the Shah. That's another issue with the older books!
 
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Martin Pitcher said:
I learned Greek, Hebrew, and Latin only to find out that the English of the KJV was exactly what God said and preserved. I am 60 years old and started my studies at the age of 12. I quit reading and studying all the "original languages" many years ago, because of my firm belief in God's preservation of His words through the koine manuscripts into the English text of the KJV.
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I thought about studying Greek at least but somehow I never felt led of the Lord to really pursue it. In many ways He would witness to me that the Holy Spirit and the Bible I had were sufficient. Thanks for putting it so clearly into words for me :). I'm a GREAT believer in the quote "God says what He means and means what He says".
 
Ruthlyn said:
I thought about studying Greek at least but somehow I never felt led of the Lord to really pursue it. In many ways He would witness to me that the Holy Spirit and the Bible I had were sufficient. Thanks for putting it so clearly into words for me :). I'm a GREAT believer in the quote "God says what He means and means what He says".
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I do agree with you in general, but there is a place at least for having a dictionary of the Greek and Hebrew words and noticing how they chose certain words in certain places to give a better sense of the meaning. I find this hard to put into words. I did see an example of it the other day. I think there is a place for people to do this kind of thing, especially to be able to point out the dangers of the "higher criticism" (if I understand the term correctly!) -- it's just not everyone's job to do it. There is a great need for being able to put correctly the English into terms the modern reader can understand these days, and I believe this sort of knowledge will help -- especially with the Old Testament (Hebrew). People seem to have much more trouble making sense out of the Old Testament. I try to think in terms of the perspective of those who have not had the advantage of growing up with the KJV.
 
I have more to say, but don't have time to reply, right now. THANKS everyone for talking with me!
 
Martin Pitcher said:
Now about the TSK, which edition are you looking for? The old one by Torrey or the newer one by MacArthur? It makes a huge difference and, to be honest, you have to be very careful of both because no matter which one you use, you'll find that neither one supports the preservation of the Scriptures in Psalms 12:7.

Another thing that you have to consider when learning Greek is, which Greek are you learning .... There was the common street Greek, koine, and there was the Greek of those who were educated, classical Greek. The Westcott and Hort text is from the classical side of the spectrum, as are all of the newer Greek text.

... Beware of what you don't know about the resource materials you are using.

I learned Greek, Hebrew, and Latin only to find out that the English of the KJV was exactly what God said and preserved. I am 60 years old and started my studies at the age of 12. I quit reading and studying all the "original languages" many years ago, because of my firm belief in God's preservation of His words through the koine manuscripts into the English text of the KJV.
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Thank you so much for your response!

I assume I want the original TSK. I am seldom happy with updates by another author. Do you know of somewhere to purchase readable hardcopies of either?

I did not know that there were versions of manuscripts that differed in type of Greek. WOW! I knew there were missing verses and knew enough that the newer is not better, but I continually learn more and more about this topic. I want the Greek of the TR. Is Machen's textbook what I want? That has always been my primary textbook. The FIRST edition. I am NOT impressed with the second edition and thrilled that the first edition went back into the public domain in January after a decade of the publisher of the second edition forbidding the printing of the first edition.
archive.org

New Testament Greek for beginners : Machen, J. Gresham (John Gresham), 1881-1937 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

xii, 285 pages ; 21 cm
archive.org

I currently have access to a few things of Homeric Greek and have played with them a little bit, lately. But my focus is on the Greek of the TR. I have studied a bit of Attic in the past, as I currently had better access to some attic than Koine at that time.

I have not seriously studied Greek in a long time and have recently picked it back up. I have some time off to study what I want, with no idea what is ahead. I do not have time to study all that I want to study and that I currently have access to resources that I don't feel confident that I will have access to again later. I am trying to be wise.

There is so much I do not know. My conclusions are always faulty because they are based on not even knowing that I do not know things. But move ahead and make choices, I must, despite that. I have to just trust that my "mistakes" are actually part of the plan, and meant for my better learning and for those that I share my stories.

I am thankful and open to any advice you have for me. Thanks!
 
Mairi Stewart said:
I found a lot of good books on the archive.org website. Buying a separate hard drive to put it all on is a good idea.

archaic spellings. That's another issue with the older books!
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I love archive.org! There are some new books available since January that I have been waiting for. I am so excited that Machen's textbook is back in the PD. Archive has much better Machen copies than what has been floating around illegally. And now they are available to everyone again.

I have so many thumbdrives of books with no proper organization. LOL.

Standardized spelling is interesting. I have studied a creole language that was not standardized until recently and so many speakers only write in French instead of their native language. It is harder to learn a language with variant spellings. At least for me.
 
Ruthlyn said:
I thought about studying Greek at least but somehow I never felt led of the Lord to really pursue it. In many ways He would witness to me that the Holy Spirit and the Bible I had were sufficient. Thanks for putting it so clearly into words for me :). I'm a GREAT believer in the quote "God says what He means and means what He says".
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I have come to the conclusion that the message is not that difficult. The Bible talks of accepting like a child. We don't get to know the most about dogs, by looking at isolated parts under a microscope. The same idea applies to the Bible, I think.
 
Mairi Stewart said:
it's just not everyone's job to do it.
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I have been thinking about how this applies to all academic pursuits, as I try and use my time off wisely. There is a growing amount of "required" general knowledge that we are requiring of everyone, to be allowed to participate in general society. I think we are weakening ourselves, by not allowing people to specialize earlier.
 
By "it's not everyone's job" I simply meant that maybe God doesn't want a particular person to be the one to do that. And a correction, last night I suddnly realized the dates simply couldn't jive with what I was remembering about buying the NIV, and that bothered me, but I finally figured it out. I must have been about twenty-three.
 
Mairi Stewart said:
There is a great need for being able to put correctly the English into terms the modern reader can understand these days, and I believe this sort of knowledge will help -- especially with the Old Testament (Hebrew). People seem to have much more trouble making sense out of the Old Testament.
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That's why I placed the Holy Spirit first, because I can testify to the BIG difference He made to my understanding of the Scriptures. The Bible was a closed and incomprehensible book before He came into my heart and life. I am not despising the study of the languages because I have benefited greatly from those who have studied them, and the preacher I love listening to most at present, Dr. H.T. Spence, is the president of a Bible College & Theological Institute and he is well versed in both Hebrew and Greek. So I never felt led of the Lord to down that path :).
 
The Torrey TSK is readily available. You can pick one up at Christian Book Distributors. If you want an older edition then I would head to ABE Books and search for an older copy, but they have left it pretty much the way it was as first published by R. A. Torrey. As for a copy of the Textus Receptus (TR) you can find it here. I would also suggest that you visit the Trinitarian Bible Society web page. You will find not only the TR, but you can purchase a copy of the Masoretic (Hebrew) text and the TR together for around $23.

As far as where to start with Greek? Well, my advise is to not bother; learn to read the Bible in English first. If you don't know English grammar well, the Greek will kill you. Start with English for Bible Readers, then I would read The Certainty of the Words. Another helpful resource is Diagramming the Scriptures. No matter what, get yourself well grounded in the Bible that God has given to you in your own language first, before you try to learn another language. I would also suggest learning about the history of the English Bible before venturing into other areas.

I hope this is a helpful start and will be praying for you as you grow in the knowledge of the word of God.
 
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I have the TSK from CBD. The 3 column pages are unreadable. it looks like Hendrickson photocopied 2 different old books, and that one of them was an oversized 3 column book and the other a smaller 2 column book. I can read the 2 column pages but not the 3 column pages. I had forgotten about Abe. Thanks!

For now, I just bought a hardcopy old Scofield to increase my ability to study entirely off the computer. If I am meant to have a readable TSK, I will have one. I prefer my giant print Sword BIble for my Bible, but I think sometimes I want study Bibles instead of commentaries. I hadn't really let myself think that way in the past. A BIble was a Bible. Period. More than one in the same version made me think I had made a mistake in purchasing the "right" one. I now see that the notes of a Bible are sometimes worth owning just for the notes.

I have not been on the Trinitarian site in awhile. I need another look. I had their TR years ago, and a Bible with a psalter.

I have Diagramming the Scriptures but not the other books. Thanks for the links!

It is hard to give up the Greek right now when I have already invested so much time and have some new resources, but ... I need to think hard about my stewardship of my time, and if am I ready to answer for my choices if I continue. It is obvious from my forum posts that I have work to do on my English. If I am to guess about my future, it is far more likely to involve English and the English Bible than anything else.
 
Ruthlyn said:
That's why I placed the Holy Spirit first, because I can testify to the BIG difference He made to my understanding of the Scriptures. The Bible was a closed and incomprehensible book before He came into my heart and life.
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I think you are so right about this.
 
About fifteen years ago, I sat down to study for a sermon series that I was presenting to the church I pastored. I was determined to have them understand my level of commitment to the Bible. As a result I wrote my personal creed, which is now printed on the back of my business cards. I would like to share it with you in the hope that it will encourage you.

"I believe that the word of God is the ultimate authority for faith and Christian living. Its doctrines can only be understood by those who have come to a saving faith in Jesus Christ and diligently studying them. As a result, sharing the gospel with the lost will be a natural outpouring of the blessings received in the life of a Christian."
 
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